It's March 15th which means we can start discussing The Tower Treasure now. Whether you just read it over the past two weeks or have read it before, please feel free to participate! If you are still waiting for it to come in the mail, then feel free to discuss with us or after you are able to read it. ;)
For anyone who is reading this topic and has NOT read the book...Beware of Spoilers. Anything about the book goes in this thread so you are warned. :)
To start us off, what was one of your favorite moments?
One of my favorite moments was when Fenton agreed to be in the search party and the boys seemed shocked and honored. Frank, of course, called dibs on him as his partner. I thought that was a good father/son moment.
I meat have to read the revised text again, because I haven't got my Applewood edition of the original text, yet.
Joe falling off the stairway was always an exciting and suspenseful moment for me.
(I know this is in the revised version. Not sure about the original text-yet.)
This is also funny to me because Frank kids him about it in "The Secret of the Island Treasure" (#100 in the Digests- particularly for big fans of the original series- this is a must read. Very cool book- and very hard to find for a decent price.)
Quote from: SDLagent on March 15, 2010, 09:03:01 PM
I meat have to read the revised text again, because I haven't got my Applewood edition of the original text, yet.
I know. Hopefully it comes in soon! But you are more than welcome to participate with what you remember or after rereading. :)
Quote from: MacGyver on March 15, 2010, 10:45:20 PM
Joe falling off the stairway was always an exciting and suspenseful moment for me.
(I know this is in the revised version. Not sure about the original text-yet.)
This is also funny to me because Frank kids him about it in "The Secret of the Island Treasure" (#100 in the Digests- particularly for big fans of the original series- this is a must read. Very cool book- and very hard to find for a decent price.)
Lol Now I will have to read #100 to see the reference of this. It's a nice tie in for sure.
I've noticed that the language is quite telling of the time period. I wonder what the Originals would "sound" like if they were written nowadays. Any thoughts?
QuoteI've noticed that the language is quite telling of the time period. I wonder what the Originals would "sound" like if they were written nowadays. Any thoughts?
This is quite true. And this is generally going to be true of most any book. Outside of books specifically set in certain time periods, where the language is going to reflect the time the book is set in, for books written to be set in the present day the language will generally be reflective of certain popular phrases or references that are only current to that time period. Generally a lot of writers try to avoid these things in order to help make their works more timeless. This is true of many of the classic works of literature that have continued to endure through time. (Jules Verne's "Around the World in 80 Days" and "Journey to the Center of the Earth" come to mind for me.) I've also noticed this in C.S. Lewis' non-fiction works like "Mere Christianity" and others. They generally don't sound too grounded in '40s and '50s jargon or anything- just obviously British. ;-)
But as to The Hardy Boys original books being written in more modern-day language- "The Secret of the Island Treasure" is probably the closest and best example you would find.
You might also be interested in Benjamin Hoff's "The House on the Point" - a rewrite of "The House on the Cliff" set in 1947.http://www.amazon.com/House-Point-Tribute-Franklin-Dixon/dp/0312301081/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268836638&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/House-Point-Tribute-Franklin-Dixon/dp/0312301081/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268836638&sr=8-1)
Quote from: MacGyver on March 15, 2010, 10:45:20 PM
Very cool book- and very hard to find for a decent price.)
Well
The Secret Of The Island Treasure only went through 3 printings before being discontinued. As far as I know it wasn't from low sales, but mostly from Simon & Schuster doing it as a way to promote the fact that it was the Hardy's 100th case in the Original continuity, and to make it a scarce story. The first 2 printings were released by themselves, and then the 3rd printing was released in a box set with, I believe, #'s 99, 101 and 102.
Yep- they did a similar thing with Nancy Drew's 100th. case in "A Secret in Time"- this book has Nancy revisiting some of the events in her first book "The Secret of the Old Clock".
And I don't have many of the Nancy Drew books, but I do have this one out of my small collection. After checking on Amazon.com, I guess both this book and "The Secret of the Island Treasure" are not as hard to find anymore back from when I got them. I saw them both available for 1 cent each. (Of course, I also saw a brand new copy of "The Secret of the Island Treasure" listed at $281.80 - wow! Good luck in selling that.)
Quote from: MacGyver on March 17, 2010, 09:38:50 AM
This is quite true. And this is generally going to be true of most any book. Outside of books specifically set in certain time periods, where the language is going to reflect the time the book is set in, for books written to be set in the present day the language will generally be reflective of certain popular phrases or references that are only current to that time period. Generally a lot of writers try to avoid these things in order to help make their works more timeless. This is true of many of the classic works of literature that have continued to endure through time. (Jules Verne's "Around the World in 80 Days" and "Journey to the Center of the Earth" come to mind for me.) I've also noticed this in C.S. Lewis' non-fiction works like "Mere Christianity" and others. They generally don't sound too grounded in '40s and '50s jargon or anything- just obviously British. ;-)
But as to The Hardy Boys original books being written in more modern-day language- "The Secret of the Island Treasure" is probably the closest and best example you would find.
You might also be interested in Benjamin Hoff's "The House on the Point" - a rewrite of "The House on the Cliff" set in 1947.http://www.amazon.com/House-Point-Tribute-Franklin-Dixon/dp/0312301081/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268836638&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/House-Point-Tribute-Franklin-Dixon/dp/0312301081/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268836638&sr=8-1)
Well of course it is natural for a book to be dated but I thought it was interesting when comparing the Originals to say the Casefiles. Very different lingo. I would say even some of the digests differ quite a bit too.
I will definitely have to check out the book you mentioned. I found it on Amazon (although with The Secret Of The Island Treasure) and it's pretty cheap. Should make a good addition to my collection.
Thanks!
Quote from: MacGyver on March 17, 2010, 10:10:41 AM
Yep- they did a similar thing with Nancy Drew's 100th. case in "A Secret in Time"- this book has Nancy revisiting some of the events in her first book "The Secret of the Old Clock".
And I don't have many of the Nancy Drew books, but I do have this one out of my small collection. After checking on Amazon.com, I guess both this book and "The Secret of the Island Treasure" are not as hard to find anymore back from when I got them. I saw them both available for 1 cent each. (Of course, I also saw a brand new copy of "The Secret of the Island Treasure" listed at $281.80 - wow! Good luck in selling that.)
Yeah! Good luck indeed!
Quote from: MacGyver on March 17, 2010, 10:10:41 AM
Yep- they did a similar thing with Nancy Drew's 100th. case in "A Secret in Time"- this book has Nancy revisiting some of the events in her first book "The Secret of the Old Clock".
And I don't have many of the Nancy Drew books, but I do have this one out of my small collection. After checking on Amazon.com, I guess both this book and "The Secret of the Island Treasure" are not as hard to find anymore back from when I got them. I saw them both available for 1 cent each. (Of course, I also saw a brand new copy of "The Secret of the Island Treasure" listed at $281.80 - wow! Good luck in selling that.)
Yeah I've also got a copy of Nancy's 100th book in near-mint condition that I only paid about $5 for 4 or 5 years ago at a used bookstore in North Bay.
Cool, dude. 8)
One of these days I'm going to get around to reading "The Secret of the Old Clock" and "A Secret in Time" back to back for comparison. :)
Quote from: MacGyver on March 18, 2010, 10:22:04 PM
Cool, dude. 8)
One of these days I'm going to get around to reading "The Secret of the Old Clock" and "A Secret in Time" back to back for comparison. :)
That would be cool! :)
Now back to the thread topic...
Finish this sentence....
In The Tower Treasure, I wish.....
In The Tower Treasure, I wish I could have read the original book back in 1927. It is interesting to read it now in 2010. I haven't noticed anything too incredibly different yet (the first chapter is pretty much the same as the revised one- same chapter title and everything.) But I did notice that Frank and Joe and the narrator refer to Saturday as a holiday, which is of course technically correct- but generally people today probably wouldn't think of it as a holiday from school so much- more like a given that you don't have to go to school on Saturdays. Although, come to think of it again- it is in good keeping with kids' language because as a kid Saturday was definitely always my biggest holiday from school during the week! :-) So I guess maybe I can see that usage in that sense. 8)
Quote from: MacGyver on March 25, 2010, 11:15:46 PM
In The Tower Treasure, I wish I could have read the original book back in 1927. It is interesting to read it now in 2010. I haven't noticed anything too incredibly different yet (the first chapter is pretty much the same as the revised one- same chapter title and everything.) But I did notice that Frank and Joe and the narrator refer to Saturday as a holiday, which is of course technically correct- but generally people today probably wouldn't think of it as a holiday from school so much- more like a given that you don't have to go to school on Saturdays. Although, come to think of it again- it is in good keeping with kids' language because as a kid Saturday was definitely always my biggest holiday from school during the week! :-) So I guess maybe I can see that usage in that sense. 8)
Yeah it would have had different meanings if we were to read it at the time it was written. The world around us would have been very different than it is now which would influence how we read it etc. "Holidays" are also used instead of saying "vacation" so that is interesting that you picked up on that. I see where they are coming from on that one but we don't really say that anymore.
In the Tower Treasure, I wish it had set up their backgrounds a little bit more. Truthfully I guess it doesn't really matter but it is the first book so you would think there would be a little more background in there. I guess the powers that be thought there was enough and didn't need to go into more detail. It's just that this is such a significant book...being the first and all. It sets up the next 83 years of Hardy Boys....
I also wish I had read this before reading any other book. I constantly have to fight against the HB world of Casefiles and fan fiction to get through this book. I liked it and all...don't get me wrong. It just made it harder to see it in my brain and read it as it is without allowing my already built HB world in my mind interfere... And some of the lingo was funny. Helter-skelter, fellows, chums (which I guess some people still use), a dud rocket, etc....
Interesting but definitely a sign of the times. :)
Ah, sorry I lacked this week with keeping up with the discussions and stuff. It was a (fortunately) busy week....
Quote"Holidays" are also used instead of saying "vacation" so that is interesting that you picked up on that. I see where they are coming from on that one but we don't really say that anymore.
This is also a British thing. For example, see "Mr. Bean's Holiday". He's not celebrating Christmas, Easter, Arbor Day or any such holiday or whatever- he's just taking a vacation. ;D (Seriously- see the movie- it's hilarious! And totally clean! And rated G! 8))
I'm familiar with that usage of "holidays" mainly due to reading numerous Enid Blyton books as a child. :D (still love 'em- can't beat The Secret Seven and The Famous Five!)
Anyway- back to The Tower Treasure...
BEST line in the whole book thus far (from the OT)
At the start of Chapter III "Traces of the Thief"- right after Chet Morton's car has been stolen- Chet makes this remark to Frank and Joe.
"The car is pretty well known around Bayport," said Chet. "It is certainly a gay-looking speed-wagon. Any one who saw it would remember it."
LOL! Now I know exactly what Chet is meaning here- the original meaning of gay (and it does still mean this) is "happy". Thus, in the lyrics of The Flinstones' theme song, we'll have a gay old time!
But obviously Leslie McFarlane couldn't have foreseen modern usage of that word and reading that passage with the current connotations in mind is just (unintentionally) hilarious! ;D
On a more serious note, I was cheering for Callie for taking goodies to an elderly widow. (And upset for her when this speed maniac destroyed half her snacks.) All I could think of was James 1:27- awesome! You rock, Callie! :D
Quote from: hardygirl847 on March 27, 2010, 09:51:50 PM
I also wish I had read this before reading any other book. I constantly have to fight against the HB world of Casefiles and fan fiction to get through this book. I liked it and all...don't get me wrong. It just made it harder to see it in my brain and read it as it is without allowing my already built HB world in my mind interfere... And some of the lingo was funny. Helter-skelter, fellows, chums (which I guess some people still use), a dud rocket, etc....
I didn't read
The Tower Treasure first, but I read most of Original Series before I read any Casefiles and definitely before I read any fan fiction. I'm glad I read these early stories first, and try to do this, now, whenever I get into a new series. And, of course, I always read the book before I watch the movie.
Quote from: MacGyver on March 28, 2010, 12:17:24 AM
This is also a British thing.
Actually, I think it's just an American thing not to, because until now, I wouldn't have thought anything of hearing holiday in this context.
MacGyver,
Yeah I remember hearing "holiday" being used in British shows or movies etc. I have seen
Mr. Bean's Holiday. Unfortunately, I cannot agree that it was hilarious. Maybe it was because I was with 25 squirming children in a movie theater at the time...I don't know. :) But I realize it's their way of saying "vacation". :)
That is a funny part of the book. I will agree that reading a book that you know was written in the 20s will have unintentional language usage humor. There were quite a few things that were said that I just giggled because they definitely would NOT say that now.
Chapter 3 is not mentioned as the
Trace of the Thief in what I can assume is the RT. It is
The Threat.
Does anyone have both copies and know if this reference is in both of them? And how much of the OT was changed when they revised it?
Quote from: SDLagent on March 30, 2010, 12:18:57 AM
I didn't read The Tower Treasure first, but I read most of Original Series before I read any Casefiles and definitely before I read any fan fiction. I'm glad I read these early stories first, and try to do this, now, whenever I get into a new series. And, of course, I always read the book before I watch the movie.
Actually, I think it's just an American thing not to, because until now, I wouldn't have thought anything of hearing holiday in this context.
That is a smart thing to do. I found Casefiles first and got hooked when I was a young teen so I never started off with the classics. Knowing myself at that age, I don't know if I would have become a huge fan if I started with the bluespines. Before you hate me (lol)...I was 12 or 13 and was boy crazy. I wanted adventure, danger, etc. The casefiles provided me with this. So I appreciate the classics more because I am older, more mature, and can value them more.
All in all, I think it worked out. But sometimes I have to remember what is "real" or canon and what has been altered from reading or writing other Hardy universes. It makes for interesting reading. :)
I also agree that most Americans would not know that "holiday" is also "vacation" because it's not in our normal vocabulary but it's just another sign of the times...and place.
What reference are you referring to?
When the book was revised in 1959 the main plot was not changed (the most change to that was to what was stolen from the Applegates). But a number of the subplots that Leslie McFarlane put in to expand upon the characters, such as Chet being a practical joker and playing jokes, or even the characterizations of Chief Collig and Detective Smuff were either changed or deleted from the text altogether. In the Original there is a fairly length scene with Chet and an auto horn that was removed altogether from the RT book.
Of course the one thing that was not removed was the pidgin English used by the farmers in Chapter 2, although some of that dialogue was changed.
So
Tower Treasure was one of the few early books that managed to get through the Revision period without much changing in the book, compared to other McFarlane texts such as
The Secret Of The Old Mill,
Footprints Under the Window and
The Melted Coins.
Quote from: hardygirl847 on March 31, 2010, 03:22:45 AM
Does anyone have both copies and know if this reference is in both of them? And how much of the OT was changed when they revised it?
Quote from: MacGyver on March 28, 2010, 12:17:24 AM
This is also a British thing. For example, see "Mr. Bean's Holiday". He's not celebrating Christmas, Easter, Arbor Day or any such holiday or whatever- he's just taking a vacation. ;D (Seriously- see the movie- it's hilarious! And totally clean! And rated G! 8))
I'm familiar with that usage of "holidays" mainly due to reading numerous Enid Blyton books as a child. :D (still love 'em- can't beat The Secret Seven and The Famous Five!)
Anyway- back to The Tower Treasure...
BEST line in the whole book thus far (from the OT)
At the start of Chapter III "Traces of the Thief"- right after Chet Morton's car has been stolen- Chet makes this remark to Frank and Joe.
"The car is pretty well known around Bayport," said Chet. "It is certainly a gay-looking speed-wagon. Any one who saw it would remember it."
LOL! Now I know exactly what Chet is meaning here- the original meaning of gay (and it does still mean this) is "happy". Thus, in the lyrics of The Flinstones' theme song, we'll have a gay old time!
But obviously Leslie McFarlane couldn't have foreseen modern usage of that word and reading that passage with the current connotations in mind is just (unintentionally) hilarious! ;D
tomswift...this is what I think I was referring to as well as in general. It seems that a lot of the OT and the RT don't link up.
Interesting...
Well with the word "gay" I seem to recall that some of the Revisions use the word when they are describing a party or a girl's dress ("gay" appeared in the Tom Swift Jr. (1954-1971) novels a few in relation to how Sandy and Phyllis' dresses looked on them). As far as "gay" goes in terms of the connotation nowadays, that really didn't start to appear till the late-80's.
Right- I know. I'm just thinking it's funny of term's of today's young readership trying to read the original text Hardy Boys books and finding that line in there- I can just see that connotation being the first thing they think of rather than thinking of "happy". Of course, I don't even necessarily mean in the sense of gay meaning homosexual. Nowadays people will call something "gay" to mean "bad" or "lame" or "fail", etc.
Well it is quite unfortunate that this term is used so poorly nowadays. I don't want to get into a whole new topic here but it's like the word retarded. Why use words that can really demean a group of people?
Kids today giggle at this instead of realize that back then it had a WHOLE different meaning.
I better not say anymore....I will get all worked up about it.
Aside from the language differences, what do you think about the gender roles that are somewhat illustrated in Tower Treasure (as well as other original books)?
Quote from: hardygirl847 on April 01, 2010, 02:33:20 PMAside from the language differences, what do you think about the gender roles that are somewhat illustrated in Tower Treasure (as well as other original books)?
I think they rock. Women should be seen and not heard.
Word.
LOL ;)
Quote from: SDLagent on April 01, 2010, 05:35:05 PM
I think they rock. Women should be seen and not heard.
WHOA NOW! That best be a joke mister!! :P
Quote from: hardygirl847 on April 01, 2010, 02:33:20 PM
Well it is quite unfortunate that this term is used so poorly nowadays. I don't want to get into a whole new topic here but it's like the word retarded. Why use words that can really demean a group of people?
I remember that when I was in Grade 7, back in 97, one of my classmates used the term in class one day, and we had a supply teacher in and the supply teacher heard him and mentioned how back in his day "gay" had meant quite a different thing from the connotation of the mid- to late-90's.
That's interesting that it would be brought up in school but we can't deny that it was used in a different context. However, we can strive to use it properly so we don't offend people.
Quote from: hardygirl847 on April 04, 2010, 10:28:10 PM
That's interesting that it would be brought up in school but we can't deny that it was used in a different context. However, we can strive to use it properly so we don't offend people.
I only offend people when it's funny.
Okay, I found another of those original meaning meets modern usage things. ;D
At the end of chapter 5 "The Arrest"-
"There, in a neat, but sparsely furnished apartment, they found Mrs. Robinson, a gentle, kindly-faced woman, somewhat lame, who was sitting anxiously in a chair by the window."
Again- I know exactly what is meant (she's a little crippled)- but still, it's so funny reading it with a modern young adult mindset. Reminds me of a funny book title by Dinah Maria Mulock Craik- "The Little Lame Prince".
lol :D ;)
Another thing I noticed in the original text- why are Adelia and Hurd Applegate so mean to the Hardy Boys when they're trying to help them recover their stolen items by searching the Towers? Hurd does eventually actually help them (and from what I can tell I think both characters redeem themselves by the end of the book)- but they really act kinda funny considering Frank and Joe are just trying to recover their jewels and bonds.
Quote from: MacGyver on April 23, 2010, 08:48:51 AM
Another thing I noticed in the original text- why are Adelia and Hurd Applegate so mean to the Hardy Boys when they're trying to help them recover their stolen items by searching the Towers? Hurd does eventually actually help them (and from what I can tell I think both characters redeem themselves by the end of the book)- but they really act kinda funny considering Frank and Joe are just trying to recover their jewels and bonds.
They came off this way in the RT too. At first I thought it was because they had something to do with the crime but later found out they are just old, mean people...lol I guess they do come around but they have something against youth. I have no idea why. However, there are still people today that have that mentality so perhaps it is a cycle?
Plus you have to remember that the Applegate's thought that the real criminal was already behind bars and that it was only a matter of time until Mr. Robinson finally broke down and revealed where the bonds and papers were hidden.
Okay- after finally finishing this book (I normally go faster with books- sadly I've only had so much time to read in between everything else I have to do)- I must say that the last two chapters totally made up for any hard feelings previously the Applegates may have had. I love Adelia Applegate's compliment to The Hardy Boys- I know they were thrilled to be called "real detectives". And to have the whole gang over at Tower Mansion for supper from the Applegates- oh, I just loved that! :D Hurd and Adelia Applegate turn out to be a really nice old couple after all and that was great to see.
And one last side note- Chief Collig and Detective Oscar Smuff really reminded me (particularly at the trial scene) of Arthur "Big Guy" Carlson and Herb Tarlek on "WKRP in Cincinatti"- LOL! ;D
One thing that's weird about the revised text is that it;s Adelia who loaned Mr. Robinson the money. Why didn't she just speak-up in the first place and save everyone a whole lot of trouble?
Quote from: SDLagent on April 25, 2010, 01:15:38 AM
One thing that's weird about the revised text is that it;s Adelia who loaned Mr. Robinson the money. Why didn't she just speak-up in the first place and save everyone a whole lot of trouble?
Well if she had then there would've been no motive for the story to continue to prove Robinson was innocent.
The switch from mean Applegates to nice Applegates seemed really fast or rushed. And yes she was the one who lent the money! I also wondered why she didn't have the common decency to say "hey, by the way, I gave him that money." This baffled me and made me kind of dislike her more. In the end, yes, they finally came around. I read this awhile ago but I still feel like it was a little too late. The Hardys are forgiving people so I guess I will be too. :)
Quote from: tomswift2002 on April 25, 2010, 12:30:07 PM
Well if she had then there would've been no motive for the story to continue to prove Robinson was innocent.
Exactly. Doesn't make ANY sense.
Quote from: SDLagent on April 26, 2010, 09:03:46 PM
Exactly. Doesn't make ANY sense.
Right....So who revised it? Who decided these things? Does anyone know?
Harriet Stratemeyer Adams.
She revised it or made the decision to revise it? That's interesting....She wrote so many HBs, you would think she would have realized the plot problem surrounding Mrs. Applegate lending out the money. Hmm...
Quote from: hardygirl847 on April 29, 2010, 03:44:26 PM
She revised it or made the decision to revise it? That's interesting....She wrote so many HBs, you would think she would have realized the plot problem surrounding Mrs. Applegate lending out the money. Hmm...
Harriet Stratemeyer Adams was the head of the Stratemeyer Syndicate from 1930-1982, and while she rewrote most of the Nancy Drew books, she only wrote a couple of Hardy Boys, both original and revised. She did write several of the outlines, but the actual books were written by other ghost writers.
But from what I've seen, apparently it was Harriet Stratemeyer Adams who rewrote
The Tower Treasure.
She always liked Nancy Drew more than The Hardy Boys.
Quote from: SDLagent on April 30, 2010, 02:13:34 AM
She always liked Nancy Drew more than The Hardy Boys.
Whether she wrote or rewrote it.... this makes me sad. :(