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General Hardy Boys Discussion => General Hardy Boys Discussions => Topic started by: Bigfootman on August 26, 2008, 01:25:52 PM

Title: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Bigfootman on August 26, 2008, 01:25:52 PM
After thinking about Undercover Brother and Casefiles and wondering how they fit with the other series I relized my problem: Undercover Brother dosen't fit! The problems:

ATAC
The problem with ATAC is that it appeared out of nowhere. Intendity Theft was suppoed to show how ATAC started, but didn't, leaving fans screathing their heads. While we don't know how the Network started, we do know how Frank and Joe started working for them.

Now I'll be qouting from SDLagent:

"1) Continuity
The continuity is very bad in the series, so much so that has even been referred to as more then one continuity.  A good example of just how bad it is can be found in the director of ATAC, Q.T. or Q (the two names even are an example) - in one book it says that Q never smiles but then in Mission #12, the Hardys? mission CD starts off with the beaming face of Q. And even worse Q or Q.T. or what ever his name is, has recently disappeared from the series, to be replaced by the nameless ATAC contact(s).

And remember that is just one example, I could go on and on, talking about how there are no recurring characters other then the few introduced in Mission #1 and Vijay Petal, and the inconsistencies in the characters, and the fact that Belinda Conrad has all but disappeared from the series, but I won't.

And that was just the within series continuity problems, I haven?t even started on the problems there is trying to fit the UB in with the rest of the Hardy World?   

2) The boys' personality
Most of the time Frank and Joe are almost unrecognizable, they don't get along like they do in other series, and they act a lot younger! Also, Frank is NOT a idiot around girls, and Joe is the chick magnet not Frank! This is part of what I was talking about at the end of point #1, the UB just don?t go with the rest of the Hardy World!

3) Nothing changes
All Hardy Boys series have used a flouting timeline but this is just over kill ? nothing changes! In the Casefiles and even in the early originals the series evolved, and events took place that gave a sense of the passage of time, but in the Undercover Brothers you can pick up book #1 or book #22, and it won't make a difference. In book one Frank and Joe have ''gone on many missions for ATAC'', and in #22 they have ''gone on many missions for ATAC'', whereas in the originals, in the first books they are new to detective, but as the series goes on they become experienced, and in the first Casefiles, they are just starting in their fight against terrorism, but towards the end it seems they have been at it longer.

To give you a good idea how little change there is in the Undercover Brothers, from almost the very first appearance of Vijay Petal, the Hardys have been pushing for him to become a field agent, but almost 20 books later nothing has happened and Vijay is still a trainee. I'm sure if this was the Casefiles, he would have become a full undercover by now."

These are some of the reasons why while you can put the Casefiles in the Hardy Boys Cannon (they take after the digests), putting UB in the cannon you just get a headake


Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: SDLagent on August 26, 2008, 04:35:10 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't dislike the UB so much if they fit in with the rest of the Hardy Boys.

QuoteAnd that was just the within series continuity problems, I haven?t even started on the problems there is trying to fit the UB in with the rest of the Hardy World?

But maybe I should.

A) ATAC. Where did it come from where does it fit in in the timeline? Is it before or after the Casefiles? It can't be after because Iola is alive, and yet it can't be before because the Hardys were amateur detectives when the Casefiles started. Was ATAC founded and then closed down between the Original/Digests? No, it wasn't because in the UB Frank and Joe have been working for ATAC for a few years and have been on 100s of missions, and it seems only a few weeks have past since the end of the Digest era when the Casefiles start. Also what happened to their friends at ATAC, like Vijay?

B) The Hardy boys personalities are totally changed. Calm and cool Frank is now a total unsecured goof when he is around a female between the ages of 13 and 30. Chick magnet Joe can't buy a date.

C) The Hardys' chums. Where are Tony, Biff, Phil and the rest of the gang? Why aren't Frank and Joe dating Callie and Iola? If this is after the Casefiles where's Vanessa?

D) Trudy. Why is Gertrude calling herself Trudy? Because of Hurricane Gertrude, you say? That doesn't make any sense since that hurricane happened years ago and if that was the case she would have gone by Trudy in her first appearance. What about the contradicting reason in Graphic Novel #2? Maybe the UB does take place after every thing else, so she gets the name after...and in the mean time has moved out and is moving back in. Yeah right!

E) Fenton Hardy is retired in the UB yet in the Casefiles he is an active PI, so the only way this works out is if the UB take place after. As mentioned above they can't since Iola is alive. Also Fenton's past is different, in the Casefiles his partner on the NYPD was Sam Peterson, but in the UB it was Jake Johanson.

F) Laura Hardy is a research librarian in the UB, yet is a stay at home mom in all the others.

G) WARD. Only slightly more probable then point A, appears this far down on the list simply because the Hardys don't come in contact with WARD as they do ATAC.

H) Where's Playback in the other books?

You could S&S mess up the HB continuity so much?
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Bigfootman on August 27, 2008, 08:32:24 AM
Correct, and no one can earse Casefiles from Hardy Boys cannon, because they fit in so well, here's why:
1. Digests
We know the Casefiles started with the 2 digests Revenge Of The Desert Phantom and the Skyfire Puzzle, and sence those are cannon, the casefiles must be too. Later on, when the series ended, The Crisscross Crime and Training For Trouble were made into digests. So unlike Undercover Brothers, Casefiles connects with the digests perfectly.
2. Blue Spines
The casefile's universe also fits with the Bluespines. Mr. Applegate is mentioned in Cold Sweat. And almost all the charicters personlys have stayed the same. Needless to say the same can NOT be said about Undercover Brothers.

You see the Casefiles fit better into the cannon then UB, and since only one can fit in without casuing problems, Casefiles suits the job the best. Meanwhile, we can just forgot about UBs and pry S and S learns from their mistakes.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on August 27, 2008, 10:29:41 AM
Plus, you have to ask yourself, if the Undercover Brothers took place before the Casefiles, then why would the Gray Man not know about ATAC and the fact that the Hardy's were agents for this "other" top-secret organization?  The Gray Man probably knew about their involvement with SKOOL and the FBI and CIA in the Originals/Digests. 

Of course, one could say that from the Gray Man's comment in Dead On Target about Mr. Gray knowing the Hardy's father that might mean that Fenton and the Gray Man worked to establish ATAC in the past, but now he doesn't remember it?????  Or it could also mean that the Gray Man worked with Fenton Hardy years earlier on a case that Fenton Hardy was brought in on by the FBI or the CIA or another government organization that was also working with the Network, and had no connection to ATAC.

I also agree on how the stories in the UB tend to be stuck at one point in time.  It's like the Hardy's are stuck in one day and they are solving like 200,000 cases in that same day.  But, I think to the Casefiles, specifically the Ring Of Evil trilogy.  I believe the author mentions the three books of the trilogy taking place in like July or August, and then when you get to Casefiles #80 Dead Of Night, on the first page Frank mentions that it is about 9 a.m. on October 31st, Hallowe'en day. That sure shows that the Hardy's had enough time to solve Danger Unlimited and a little down time, since the main part of the trilogy ended in the summer while the epilogue to the trilogy doesn't start till 9 a.m. October 31st, nearly 2 months after.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Bigfootman on August 27, 2008, 03:13:49 PM
It seems that the ATAC fans don't have anything to say about this....
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: SDLagent on August 27, 2008, 04:37:01 PM
Of course there is a few inconsistencies, like the Hardys van, but other then that the Casefiles fit really well with the Original continuity.

In-universe time line:
Original
Digest
Casefiles
SuperMystery '88
Ultra Thriller

UB in-universe timeline:
Graphic Novel
Undercover Brothers
Super Mystery '07
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on August 29, 2008, 08:24:40 AM
Of course, Time Bomb is the one main universe book that doesn't fit in in time, since the majority of that books plot was erased when Tom told Reseinbach not to do his test the way he had originally done it.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on August 29, 2008, 11:34:46 AM
There just a couple a serieses with the same charachters and storyline!
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on August 30, 2008, 07:35:26 AM
No, the barely have the same characters and there is no storyline in the Undercover Brothers series.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on August 30, 2008, 03:24:58 PM
atac=storyline
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: SDLagent on August 30, 2008, 03:26:47 PM
What storyline?
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Bigfootman on August 30, 2008, 03:29:40 PM
Quote from: bozonessinc on August 30, 2008, 03:24:58 PM
atac=storyline
So a bunch of random nonsence is a storyline?
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on August 30, 2008, 06:20:58 PM
I didn't even know that there was nonsense in the UB books?  I thought that it was a bunch of gibberish.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Bigfootman on September 20, 2008, 07:01:51 AM
Quote from: bozonessinc on August 30, 2008, 03:24:58 PM
atac=non sense
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on September 24, 2008, 10:56:09 AM
The story line of the Undercover Brothers Series is the same through/out the ATAC books I mean if you want to say there is none say that. Do you not know what remains the same in every book???? The same, is that its always an ATAC mission, theres always somebody starting a mission, thats the storyline, most other serieses are just the same charachters throughout but every book is way different, ATAC series stays mostly the same, so I guess you could say change would be nice, and thats why theres trilogys, I think they want to give us some change.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on September 24, 2008, 06:06:26 PM
What Trilogies?  The Murder House Trilogy was one joke of a trilogy.  Every single book was introducing new characters onto the set of a reality (last time that I checked on reality shows, the point was to get to the last "man standing", not to keep introducing more cast members in every episode?) show.  There was no change from the main series in the trilogy and there never will be any change in the future trilogies because the Undercover Brothers series doesn't know how to change anything.  The editors seem to think that the model used in Extreme Danger is good enough for a series of 30 books, so they keep copying it and not making any changes to it.

Rating for Undercover Brothers: I- (means that the series doesn't even rate on any grading scale.)
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on September 25, 2008, 11:01:23 AM
There are more trilogys coming out though other than the murder house trilogy, theres the double danger trilogy coming out and also how do we know murder house trilogy is all crap yet, because we haven't seen Murder House the book, comes out in 5 days.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on September 25, 2008, 01:49:45 PM
Considering that we've seen 2/3 of the Murder House Trilogy and the first two books were the same as the rest of the series it is pretty easy to see how #3 is going to be. 
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on September 26, 2008, 11:01:17 AM
I liked the action of the end of house arrest, what books I like may not be the same as the books that you like. Though my favorite books are ATAC books, because they stay on the same story line instead of changing every book like in the other ones. Though  I would like to know, are the network ones the casefiles, or are they different???
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Olivia on September 26, 2008, 02:42:19 PM
The Network is in the Casefiles, but they are not in every book nor do Frank and Joe work for them. They just work "with" them sometimes. It's also a really different kind of agency (if you can call it that) then ATAC.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: SDLagent on September 26, 2008, 04:23:59 PM
The Network is also in Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys SuperMystery ('88), and Hardy Boys and Tom Swift Ultra Thriller.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on September 26, 2008, 04:59:31 PM
And with the Network, there are times where the Network brings the Hardys in on their cases when they do need younger people to infiltrate the criminal gangs they are going after (Casefiles #14 Too Many Traitors, April 1988), whereas there are other cases where the Hardys are working on their own case and discover that the Network is working on the same case because of another angle. (Ring Of Evil Trilogy from June, July and August 1993, and the epilogue from October 1993, Dead Of Night).
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on September 29, 2008, 11:08:32 AM
I have only read 2 casefiles books, and in the ones I read, there was just The boys and deciding they needed to do something about something, where is this network in the books.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Sam Spade on September 29, 2008, 02:21:48 PM
The Network are in several Casefiles books, but not all of them. You probably read two books that didn't have the Network in them.
The Network appears in Dead on Target, Evil INC., The Lazarus Plot, and MANY, MANY others. (those are just a few examples.)
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on September 29, 2008, 02:53:43 PM
I think I will get some casefiles books tonight at the library. Thanks for the tips on the books. I want to see if the network are better to base which series is my fave on.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Olivia on September 29, 2008, 09:40:32 PM
I don't think you should base what you like all onto an agency (although it's sort of an important part of both series)...

Unless you meant something else?
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: SDLagent on September 29, 2008, 11:16:07 PM
I don't really like the Network or ATAC, I just like the network better. For me, the best books are those with the boys working by themselves.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Sam Spade on September 30, 2008, 05:03:26 AM
Quote from: SDLagent on September 29, 2008, 11:16:07 PM
I don't really like the Network or ATAC, I just like the network better. For me, the best books are those with the boys working by themselves.

What this? A fresh point of view? It can't be!
No, but it's nice to finally hear something besides:

UBS ROCK!

UBS SUCK! I LIKE THE NETWORK!


I'm gonna fake quote that last quote!

::)
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Jokerette on September 30, 2008, 08:40:24 AM
Quote from: Sam Spade on September 30, 2008, 05:03:26 AM
What this? A fresh point of view? It can't be!
No, but it's nice to finally hear something like this:

UBS ROCK!

UBS ROCK! I HATE THE NETWORK!




::)
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on September 30, 2008, 08:59:49 AM
Quote from: bozonessinc on September 29, 2008, 02:53:43 PM
I think I will get some casefiles books tonight at the library. Thanks for the tips on the books. I want to see if the network are better to base which series is my fave on.

The Network also appeared in some of the Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys SuperMystery'88 books such as Best Of Enemies and Operation: Titanic, to name a few, plus the Network appeared in the Hardy Boys and Tom Swift Ultra Thriller: The Alien Factor.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on September 30, 2008, 10:49:47 AM
So I base my opinion on the original hardy boys books and the ATAC books, in my opinion it is better. From the casefiles I have read, the ATAC are better. If you like a series you tend to buy more of it. So I have not read very many casefiles because I did not think the first ones were best and they aren't common at all book stores. Some don't even sell them, just the ATAC and the oringial. Coles doesn't at some locations.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on September 30, 2008, 06:06:27 PM
The last Casefiles book, #127 Dead In The Water, was published in January 1998, and even before that $&$ had been sending quite a few Casefiles into the out-of-print listings for unknown reasons.  Last time I checked back in December $&$ was saying that all books related to the Hardy Boys Casefiles continuity were out-of-print and no longer available.  So the Casefiles are no longer available in many "new" bookstores.  Instead they are available from used book stores and online.

As far as I know a lot of libraries still have the Casefiles in their collections since the oldest books are less than 50 years old.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Olivia on September 30, 2008, 10:36:57 PM
I love how everyone keeps saying "$&$"
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: SDLagent on October 01, 2008, 01:08:24 AM
Yeah, you like that?
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on October 01, 2008, 11:07:19 AM
What is that supposed to mean.. the $and$ are you trying to suggest they only care about money.

YOUR RIGHT
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: SDLagent on October 01, 2008, 03:34:29 PM
Yep, $&$ only cares about money.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Olivia on October 02, 2008, 12:21:20 AM
Definitely a good name for "$&$" thanks to you, SDLagent. We should send that to them ;)

Or do something random like paste pictures of the HBs onto another picture of a money tree and a photo of Edward Stratemeyer crying. But did Edward himself care about the series? I'm sure he did, but it was probably also about the money because he originally created the concept of the dime novel which did well, right?
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: tomswift2002 on October 02, 2008, 07:50:51 AM
Quote from: Iola.Alive on October 02, 2008, 12:21:20 AM

Or do something random like paste pictures of the HBs onto another picture of a money tree and a photo of Edward Stratemeyer crying. But did Edward himself care about the series? I'm sure he did, but it was probably also about the money because he originally created the concept of the dime novel which did well, right?

I think Edward Stratemeyer cared about the series since from all the research that people have done it appears that Edward Stratemeyer was the primary editor at the Stratemeyer Syndicate when he was alive.  According to the records at the New York Public Library Edward Stratmeyer edited all the Tom Swift books up to Tom Swift and His Sky Train (1931) and all the Hardy Boys up to The Great Airport Mystery (1930) and possible some of What Happened at Midnight (1931).
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on October 02, 2008, 10:58:37 AM
SandS is crazy all they care about is MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY AND MORE MONEY AND MONEY AND DID I FORGET TO MENTION MONEY
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: NZone on October 02, 2008, 04:51:39 PM
Quote from: bozonessinc on October 02, 2008, 10:58:37 AM
SandS is crazy all they care about is MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY AND MORE MONEY AND MONEY AND DID I FORGET TO MENTION MONEY

Heaven forbid a company care about money!!! ::) S&S's purpose is to make money. They are under no obligation to do anything other than make money. The only problem, the best way to make money is not to try to squeeze every dime out of something, but to build a large and supportive fan base. So actually S&S does not care enough about money, or they need better decisions so that they can make more money.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Olivia on October 02, 2008, 10:48:01 PM
Just to respond to this money thing in general...

Sometimes when a company fixates on money, they try to output as much as possible (as well as "mainstream" or "dumbdown") which may affect the quality of the product a lot of times. Also, trying to appeal to the masses sometimes doesn't take much.

Well, I know what I mean in my head anyways.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: Bigfootman on October 03, 2008, 07:22:48 AM
Quote from: bozonessinc on September 29, 2008, 11:08:32 AM
I have only read 2 casefiles books, and in the ones I read, there was just The boys and deciding they needed to do something about something, where is this network in the books.
It's possible you happened to read 2 books from the 90-127 range, witch Didn't have much network.
Title: Re: Undercover Brothers doesn't fit into Hardy Boys continualty!
Post by: bozonessinc on October 03, 2008, 02:18:26 PM
Possible!

I guess....

But, why should I answer you, you were making fun of me on another thread... Kidding...